I agree with every sentiment you've expressed here. However, I cringed when you called Dave "doughy". It immediately brought to mind your comment during Dave's session about name-calling. (You said you don't visit blogs that do that.)

"Doughy" seems pretty close to name-calling to me.

(Oh, and that rebel flag graphic is hysterical. How silly.)

Bill, what is your point? Have you not read his post-conference post?

http://archive.scripting.com/2005/05/10#moreNashvillePosttripNotes

Did you not read the "this is sarcasm" note at the bottom of his post?

Also, while you're reviewing what you obviously missed, read these notes from the session:

http://www.rexblog.com/2005/05/08#a6691

Is it "WHY-ner" or "WEE-ner"? I guess either one would work.

Dough is a good thing. I like dough, both the green and spendable kind and the kind used to make pastries. Dough is good. Dave Winer has a lot of dough.

As for Winer saying he was "sorry for the sarcasm," - no he isn't. If he was sorry for it, he wouldn't have posted it. That's a transparent effort to dodge responsibility for what he posted.

Dave's session did nothing more than expose him as ultra-thin-skinned and petty. He has the crazy notion that the first "shared value" should be "Dave Winer is right about everything and saying he is wrong is the same as calling him stupid and disrespecting him."

It was pretty sad.

Stan Brown wasn't the only person to laugh when Winer stated it to be a "fact" we all could agree on that our economy is in bad shape. No, it's not a fact. It's an opinion, with a wide range of facts both pro and con.

I also laughed because it was a ludicrous statement and exposed Winer as a fraud on the issue of "A Respectful Disagreement."

But Winer wants to start the discussion of any blogging about the economy with "the fact" that the economy is bad. Sorry, no can do. We don't agree that to be a fact. We have different opinions. The session was called "A Respectful Disagreement," but it is extremely difficult to be respectful in discussing disagreements when the other side - Winer, in this case - demands that you agree to his stated "fact" as a prerequesite for him treating you with respect.

The way he attacked Stan Brown for laughing to himself when Winer stated his economic opinion as a "fact" we all shared was simply insulting to everyone in the room.

It also completely undermined Winer's whole position as he showed he was unable to respect someone who had a different point of view.

Tennessee House Speaker Jimmy Naifeh and his chief sidekick state Rep. Kim McMillan are stoopid, and espo proves it. -billhobbs.com

Bill, I obviously haven't taken your advice to not visit blogs that participate in name-calling or I wouldn't be here.

Also, a Democrat calling a Republican stupid doesn't make it any more okay for a Republican to call a Democrat stupid. If you are going to justify your behavior with the behavior of others, you aren't doing much to elevate the level of public discourse.

I think that you've got some good ideas, and I want to personally thank you for your part in making BlogNashville happen. However, you make it more difficult for me to respect those ideas when you resort to name-calling and putting words into the mouths of those you disagree with.

My question was a serious one; I've heard it both ways.

Do you want to know what is worse then out and out name-calling? When bloggers attempt to mimic the media and create a firestorm about something in order to discredit someone or destroy their reputations. Thats what republican bloggers do. They're like Matt Drudge.

These people don't want to discuss issues. They want to muddy the water, create an event or conversation that they can then blow up into an outrage and then pretend to be shocked as they attempt to create a mob of people to shout so loudly that their phony senario actually does harm someone's reputation or career.

I give Hobbs 5 stars. He's as good as any other republican at playing this game. Too bad he hasn't gotten any reader to play along. Guess your readers are too savy for you Mr Hobbs, better sharpen your skills or play it straight. too bad. Guess you'll just have to censor me again for speaking the truth.

yeula - I don't think that you can accurately lump all republican bloggers into the same behavior. Plenty of republican bloggers don't do this at all. While you might be able to convince me that Bill does this on occasion, I can't say that he does it all of the time.

Bill

You are right on point. It was a pleasure meeting you this past weekend. I too sat through this what was supposed to be a seminar. I am still trying to figure out how one "respectfully disagrees" when using the abortion topic out of the box. One of the few topics in life where there is no middle ground.

The other aspect that I found comical, although I guess we were not supposed to laugh as that would be disrespectful, was the idea that Republicans call him & Dems stupid??? Trust me I live in the liberal northeast and am married to a GRIT. Being in New England is nothing more than an abject lesson in how not to swing at people as they constantly refer to southerners as stupid.

It would appear that Glenn Reynolds was a bit disappointed as well from a couple of his posts today.

Why does it not surprise me that i am reading left leaning posts defending Dave's actions and actually stating that people did not understand what was going on. Boy does that not sound familiar.

Bill, even when you and I disagree, I appreciate your professionalism when you present the facts and whatever political spin you choose to add... but this sort of post is beneath you. Yes, Dave Winer whines...cute and mildly humorous, but hardly news or more than regurgitated chat. When I see good bloggers commenting on someone else's whining...it comes off as just more whining (IMHO). Someone needs to take the higher road and pull the throttle back on rhetoric that even smells personal...and I believe that you can set that standard, and set it high.

By the by, high marks for your leadership in BlogNashville!

Hey, yeula, not all who think Dave was either hypersensitive or acting are Republicans. I have been "accused" on more than one occasion of being left-leaning (but one must consider the perspective of the accuser). (As a point of fact, when I take the little libertarian diamond quiz thingy, I end up toward the top, yes, but to the left of center, as opposed to the right.)

I do agree with Red and others that the defense of Winer (Roger, it's WY-ner) at times seems divided along the typical left-right chasm, but I am here to state no such defense of his behavior. I was at the session, and it was crazy. Sure, Stan gaffed a little too (it was before the infamous chuckle), and the cartoonists were a little bristly, but none compared to Dave Winer when it came to hostility. He kept doing the very things he kept asking people not to do. I find no excuse for it, no matter how many political positions we may or may not have in common.

I also want to defend Bill a little, too. A couple of quotes have been dragged out above, but, by and large, Bill Hobbs is a very respectfully-disagreeing blogger. Again, folks, don't let your personal political views color your takes on things. Be objective, be fair, and call 'em like you see 'em.

Paul,

I almost agree with you, actually, and I wasn't going to write about Winer's embarrassing performance at all - until he posted that Confederate flag graphic and the text that went with it. Winer is trying to lump all residents of the South together as unreconstructed reactionary conservative racist haters who can't have a civil discussion.

Ironically, the discussion in that room WAS civil whenever Winer shut up and sat down.

Dave was a perfect gentleman when he came to Chapel Hill, even while stirring up discussion.

Maybe some of you should ask yourselves: Who is the real whiner?

BTW...The only racists I know happen to be sourthern conservatives. The problem has not gone away, as some seem to suggest.
Maybe it is because most are white...and seem to prefer it that way.

There are eye-logs to behold. Look around. Go to better schools. Then maybe you can be written about too.

Dave
Charlotte

I think Dave created this presentation to give him his coffee talk conversation in Seattle and San Francisco. I have read his site for years, and I knew it would be a genuine cluster #$%^! I told him so the evening before. And I am a guy who respects him greatly. He did created the environment we enjoyed this weekend. Blogging, RSS, BloggerCon, PodCasting. However, I read him for his technology, not his interpersonal skills or politics.

He was absolutely ill suited for this discussion. Who walks into a room and starts talking abortion. That is the third rail of political discourse. No one's mind will be changed, and everyone's perceptions harden immediately. Not to be flip about it, but that raised the tension in the room. Then an unforeseen event with John Cox getting frustrated because he was out of Dave's vision and that tiff ensued. After that, there was no winning with him as a moderator. The incident with Stan Brown was just the icing on the cake.

I have said elsewhere, and I think this is a good forum to say it again. If Dave had talked on almost any other subject, he would have left Nashville as a visionary and a genius. Now he leaves a petty man.

And that is the shame.