As a member of the "isolationalist denomination" that Bill writes about I wanted to at least insert a different perspective on the church of Christ.

Contrary to the assertion in the above article, we do not believe in salvation by works, but we also do not believe in salvation by grace only. If salvation were by grace only, then all would be saved, even the islamic terrorists. We believe rather that salvation is conditional. Perhaps Bill disagrees with this but nevertheless it is not the same as salvation by works.

As far as the allegation that we think we are the only true Christian church, isn't it true there is only one church, the one the Lord built? The only thing left to resolve is whether we are in it.

I do not wish to seem unreasonable to our good host, but it seems the comments are uncharitable. I know many members of the church of Christ engaged in innumerable good works. By the standards expressed above, can we not know they are Christians?

Lynn, Granted, there are members and congregations of the Church of Christ that are very active in good works. I did not say or imply otherwise.

However, you are wrong about the other.

The Church of Christ most certainly does teach that salvation is the result of grace plus man's works. It teaches that baptism is a work man does to achieve salvation. It teaches that faith+works=salvation. But baptism is not a work that man does - it is something that man submits to. And submission to baptism does not contribute to salvation, it symbolizes acceptance of it. And salvation is given by grace and recieved solely by faith, and good works flow from salvation, they do not contribute to it.

Asserting that the Lord built only one church is a far cry from asserting that one denomination is that church and that all believers outside of that denomination are not saved. That claim asserts a level of perfection in doctrine and practice that simply is beyond human ability. The Church of Christ, like all denominations, is imperfect, and can't claim exclusivity based on perfection. Perfection based on human effort and human study and understanding is out of reach - all have fallen short. It is simply illogical to claim that a certain denomination is the true church based on it being more right than another - that would be claiming that salvation is achieved by reaching a certain level of near-perfection. And that puts man in the position of judging others as to whether they believe enough of the "right" doctrines (on a host of lesser issues such as instrumental music, the role of women in the church, the nature of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, etc.) and do enough of the "right" things to earn or keep their salvation.

It's claim rests on the belief of its leaders that it is "right" on a laundry list of issues, though I fail to see where the Bible teaches that membership in His church is based on believing and doing everything right.

Membership in his church is based on one being saved by grace through faith, period. That puts one in "the Lord's church," no matter what it says on the sign out front.

(An aside: I have long had this dream that all of the churches (first in Nashville, then around the country) where people gather Sundays to worship Jesus would, for a period of time, cover their signs with burlap and spray paint simple words on them "Christians gather here to worship Jesus, Sundays at 10 a.m." or whatever their meeting time is. It would do wonders for breaking down denominational barriers.)

Believing in salvation by grace only does not mean what you rather ridiculously assert, that "If salvation were by grace only, then all would be saved, even the islamic terrorists."

Obviously that is an overreach, a mischaracterization of salvation by grace. Islamic terrorists have not accepted Christ. They obviously have not put their lives and actions under Christ's direction.

Salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH, and true salvation produces a changed life over time.

So, where does faith come from? Is faith a human action? No! My Bible teaches me that faith is grown BY GOD inside a person after the "seed" of the gospel has been planted.

Thus, salvation is something God does, and something the believer contributes nothing to.

Salvation is by grace through faith.

The formula faith+works-salvation, taken by misreading the famous passage in James, is incorrect. Any suggestion that human action contributes to salvation amounnts to suggesting that what Christ did on the cross was insufficient.

I've rambled long enough.

More here.

Bill,

As a former member of Woodmont Hills and one of your former college buddies, I have to disagree with your response to Lynn.

When did baptism become a work? To quote Peter, "It is not the washing of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." As Christians, we all agree redemption is through Christ Jesus. I think we really over analyze what really occurs during baptism. It is simply the part of God's grace when we come into contact with the healing blood of Christ. I believe that is what the scriptures teach, nothing more and nothing less.

I agree that "salvation is given by grace and recieved solely by faith, and good works flow from salvation, they do not contribute to it." I've no problem with that. We all need to remember that there is only one Perfect person, and that is Christ, Himself. We are made perfect through him by his Grace.

My wife and I left Woodmont Hills because they became too involved in politics and because we believed the hierarchy was topsy-turvy. Things may have settled down now, but they went through their own growning pains. I don't think or believe that any one congregation or demomination has a lock on salvation or has some special insight into the mind of God. You only have to "Read the Book"!

I wish Rubel and Myra well. And I pray that many will be added to the "church" both there and here.

PS - Thanks for keeping an eye on Phil Bredesen for us. This is the only place I know where I can find out what is really going on.

Eric, I don't think baptism is a "work." However, conservative Churches of Christ do teach it as a "work" that is the person's contribution to salvation. That's my main criticism of the Church of Christ - they misrepresent baptism as something the believer does to "get saved," rather than something God does that the believer submits to.

You can hear it in typical Church of Christ language: they are less likely to ask if or when a person "became a Christian" than if or when "they got baptized." That kind of phraseology indicates they believe the some of the saving power is in the act of baptism itself rather than the biblical truth that salvation is a free gift of grace accomplished 100% by what Jesus did on the cross.

Bill:

I became a Christian 42 years ago. I am a member of the church of Christ. In those 42 years, I have apparently never set foot in (any of the autonomous) congregations you did: I have never heard in churches of Christ, from the pulpit or in classrooms, that a person is saved by meritorius works. To the contrary, the preaching and teaching I have consistently heard is that one is saved by grace. True, the congregations I have attended have taught the whole counsel of God: that one is justified by works, and not faith alone. (James 2:24.) No one can merit salvation; it is God's free gift. But only an obedient faith saves. And of course while baptism in itself does not save, it is the act by which the Bible teaches that we contact the blood of Christ.

John

You and have had very different experiences, then, John. I heard little about grace growing up, and much about works as part of the formula for achieving salvation.

You quote James 2:24, but what about Galatians 2?

A man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

I am not arguing against good works, merely against the notion - peddled heavily in the Church of Christ - that good works and human action contribute to salvation. They do not. We are justified by faith in Christ, not by righteous activity.

When James says Faith without works is dead, he is NOT saying Faith+Works=Life. He is saying that faith that produces no works is not living faith.

Real faith - saving faith - produces good works. But good works do not save or contribute to salvation.

We may be arguing semantical differences here. Sure, a believer will evidence their faith in good works. But he is not saved by his works - his works merely are an reflection of the fact that he has been saved.

The Church of Christ I experienced over many years taught primarily that the desire for salvation motivated good works. You not only had to believe, you had to live right all of the time. Salvation was never an assured thing. I think that's backwards. The fact of one's salvation motivates one to do good works. And salvation is assured to the believer because it was accomplished by God in the person of Jesus on the cross and via the resurrection. The human failings of a human believer are not capably of undoing what Jesus did. If they were, sin would have the upper hand over God.

Bill:

Works do not save us. Faith does not save us, either, in the sense that because we believe, we have merited salvation. Only the blood of Christ saves us. That is the foundation of our salvation and the only thing I have heard taught in various congregations of churches of Christ over the last 4+ decades. I am sorry to hear that you have not always heard the message that we are saved by God's grace.

Are we saved if we believe but are not obedient? I agree, of course, with your mention of Gal. 2:16 that obedience to the law of Moses will not save us--we must instead have a saving faith in Christ Jesus. I appreciate your thoughts on this, but feel I must rely on the words of Christ Himself: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life." John 3:36. It is not faith only that saves, but an obedient faith. That obedient faith will not be the foundation of our salvation; our foundation is God's grace. We cannot claim the right to heaven by claiming either our faith or our works makes us deserving. But Christ's teaching makes clear that faith by itself is not sufficient. A faith that obeys Christ's teachings is a faith that the Bible teaches puts us within the family of the redeemed.

Best wishes,

John

John - there is no such thing as faith without obedience. Not real, living faith. Thats what James 2 teaches. Faith that does not produce obedience is not real faith. It is dead faith. True belief produces living faith.

I'm not arguing for cheap grace, where one merely professes to "believe" and is automatically saved even though they continue to willfully sin. Far from it. I'm merely contending that there is no saving power in the good works and right living in and of themselves - that the power of salvation is 100% God's, and the true believer, having been saved by grace through faith in what God has done for them, is then motivated by the Spirit to a life of good works and right living. The same power that saves you is the power that gives you power to do good works and live right (marked of course by human failings as we all fall short).

Good works and right actions and obedience to God's will and His commands (such as baptism, doing good to others, etc.) do not power salvation. Salvation powers good works and right actions and obedience to God's will and His commands.

I believe in Salvation by Grace.

Slick.

I will admit her politics are a bit dodgy.

But she believes in the Volunteers. And that we should Rejoyce.

Can't be all bad.

:-)

God’s word teaches that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Grace is God’s part. Faith is man’s response to God’s offer of grace. The faith that saves is the faith that obeys (works of obedience) (Galatians 5:6, Hebrews 5:8-9, James 2:24, 26).

Please read Matthew 25:31-46-sounds like the Lord will judge us by works of obedience.
God has work for us to do in His Kingdom! Read the following about works and laboring for the child of God.

Remember, it takes faith, grace, and works of obedience through faith, after obeying the gospel. Why do people miss this point? Christians are to do good unto all men--we have much to do for the Lord. No works can save me outside of Christ, but when I become a child of God I have works through faith to keep me letting my light shine to glorify God. Those who refuse to do work as a child of God will be in danger at the judgment day--read Matt. 25:31-ff.The saved on that day made works a part of their lives, and others who were lost refused to believe that works does anything to save them.
James 2:14-20
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Rev. 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Matt. 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (KJV)

1 Cor. 15:58
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (KJV)