So now we're left with "ideological ties" to al Qaeda. Bill, you know, evil doesn't have to be tied to al Qaeda to be evil. Evil existed before bin Laden. Really. It did. Osama still needs to be hunted down like a rabid dog and put out of our misery, but it's doubtful he had anything to do in Chechnya.

You should read the nice editorial in the Wall Street Journal today, written by a gentleman who understands the conflict, and understands that ignoring the 130,000 dead Chechens isn't a reasonable course of action (even in the face of 350 dead kids).

I know you get all foamy-mouthed when reading about a "terrorist", but as with other "terrorists", there's no comparison between the Russian-Chechen conflict and the US-al Qaeda conflict. We didn't do anything to bin Laden, he preemptively attacked us. The Chechens have been tortured and slaughtered by the thousands by Russia over the last 10 years.

There is no comparison.

Ideological ties at a minimum. There is also, from what I've been reading, possibility of financial ties and more.

By the way, did the Russians just decide one day to start killing Chechens, without provocation - or were they provoked in some way?

For a much more thorough understanding of what is really going on in Chechnya, you must read Dan Darling's long piece over at Winds of Change today. Here is the LINK.

What is happening today is different from the Chechen war for indepdendence a decade or so ago. The Russians withdrew from Chechnya after experience Vietnam-like failure there, and the Islamists have moved in to fill the vacuum. The Islamists, with myriad ties to al Qaeda and other Islamist jihadist movements, are trying to spread the war throughout the region.

Among the many points Darling makes is this one: the Chechen Islamist terrorists targeted the school in Ossetia because Ossetia is a majority-Christian region.

IMHO, they must be resisted at all costs. 13th Century retrograde Islam, an ideology of oppression that seeks to destroy modern civilization, must be crushed at all costs.

If we don't crush jihadist Islam today, we may well have to wipe out all of it later. This is about our survival and ... there is absolutely no military action I won't approve of or agitate for politically in order to protect my children from that which happened in Beslan.

The Chechens decided to withdraw from the former Soviet Union at its downfall, as did many other states. Our government has supported them to some extent, such as recently granting amnesty to one of the separatist leaders.

This is a dirty war on both sides, although the Chechens are vastly out numbered by the Russians. The guerrilla fighters have mixed with civilians, tortured captured Russians, and other such evils. The casualty figures are 6000 to 130,000, so do the math.

The problem here, Bill, is that you see the word "terrorist" and your mouth starts foaming. This isn't al Qaeda or anything like it. The Chechens have a legitimate gripe with Russia. Read the link that I posted here yesterday. Multiply the story that I showed (which wasn't even complete) by thousands of people. He was one who lived to tell, by the way, not one of the 130,000 who didn't.

These people want to be apart from Russia (is that one difficult to figure out?) and frankly, they deserve it. We do need to help them transition to a good government instead of letting them become another freaky islamic state.

But "kill the terrorists" isn't a valid option. Russia has been systematically torturing and killing Chechens for 10 years now, and it hasn't worked yet. The suicide bombers on the airplanes were thought to be widows of victims of Russian atrocities. Let's think hard here: if their husbands were still alive, would they have been bombing an airplane?

The war is so dirty that it's believed that an apartment complex bombing that was blamed on Chechens was actually perpetrated by the Russian FSB (FBI/CIA organization) in order to build support for the war against Chechnya. Think about it: Your side, the Russians, are willing to bomb their own people to build support for this.

Is that what you're supporting? Seriously. Do you think it's okay for thousands of Chechens who may or may not have had anything to do with this dirty war to have been tortured, disappeared, or murdered? Does a school hostage-taking/bombing campaign- which looks to be more of a regional ethnic conflict than anything- make it "okay" for the Russians to continue the random torturing and killing?

And, finally, if you were a Chechen, what would you do? What if the Russian army came to your village?

I really want to know what your answers are.

If you think this is another war against Islam, you haven't educated yourself.

Again, I urge you to read the nice people in the WSJ today. I know you're not dumb, Bill, and ignorance has a cure. It's called "education".

Michael, there is a vast difference between the Chechen war for independence a decade ago and what happened in Beslan last week.

A decade ago, perhaps, there was a legitimacy to the revolt (though as the sovreign government, Russia did have the right to try to put down that revolt). I don't approve of any atrocities or war crimes committed by either side during that conflict.

But what happened since then is this:
1. The Russians withdrew.
2. Islamist extremists including from outside the region Islamicized the anti-Russia movement and are moving to spread conflict throughout the region.

If the Chechen people wish to rise up against their government, fine. But the killers of innocent children in Beslan were not Chechens seeking freedom, they were Islamists seeking to murder innocent Christians and to spread their death-cult ideology of hatred, oppression and tyranny throughout the region. They didn't attack Russian military or government interests in Chechnya, Michael. They attacked grade-schoolers in RUSSIA.

THAT is the part of the Chechen conflict that is a piece of the global war against Islamic terror. THAT is the part of Russia's fight that is OUR fight.

"Voters now say terrorism is as important as the economy in determining their vote."

I don't see the economy and terrorism as competing election issues. No matter how strong the economy is, terrorism affects the economy. I was unemployed for nearly a year after 9/11. I didn't draw any unemployment because I wasn't eligible. My chances of being physically harmed in a terrorist attack are not that high. However, from experience, the chances that my livelihood/retirement will be harmed in any mainland terrorist attack is high.

To me, terrorism is an important issue _because_ the economy is an important issue.

Right, Bill, just like Russia doesn't attack military interests, either, they attack innocent people. It's called terrorism, whether the Russian army does it or the freaky islamics do it.

I've just added someone else to my side: Gary Kasparov. Now, I know that you, Bill, know *way* more than Kasparov about Russia. But here are a couple of quotes from his WSJ editorial this morning:

"What will it take for Mr. Putin to admit that Chechnya won't abide Kremlin-appointed leaders, especially while its villages are blown apart daily by the Russian military and Kremlin-backed bandits who are no different from the terrorists?"

and

"Despite Mr. Putin's attempts to lay blame on al Qaeda- and so pretend he is fighting the same battle as the West- the war in Chechnya is of his own making."

There you go, Bill, argue with Gary...

(quick note: you can't, so don't bother)

Well, Bill, I know you don't like to swallow painful pills, and so won't go read Mr. Kasparov's article, so let me quote a little more. You're not going to like this either, but Kasparov says it better than I do given his closeness to the subject. Without further adieu:

"It's possible Mr. Putin is simply confused on the entire issue of terrorism. HIs continuation of the longstanding Soviet backing of Yasser Arafat strips him of any credibility on the subject. The same could be said for any number of European leaders. Jacques Chirac has been quick to condemn American actions in Iraq and Israeli actions on its borders. Yet he and Gerhard Schroeder are happy to stroll with Mr. Putin, ignoring Russian atrocities in Chechnya. On the same day the UN condemned Israel for military crimes in Jenin, it declined to do the same for Russia's crims in Chechnya.

The prison abuses in Iraq must be punished, but the endless horrors of the Chechen prison camp of Chernokosovo make Abu Graib look like a one-star Soviet-era hotel. There is a fullscale genocide taking place and it is being endorsed by every member of the G-7 when they fail to condemn it. The West has written the Putin regime a blank moral check for the sake of stability. The cashing of that check at the expense of Russia's citizenry has left the leaders of the free world morally bankrupt. Russia is allowed into the G-7, an organization supposedly for the largest industrial democracies, when Russia is neither."

That's what Gary Kasparov has to say about the Russians that you now support. Comments?

I don't recall ever hearing that being good at chess makes one an expert on terrorism, but whatever.

A few years ago, before the sites were taken down, I spent a lot of time on Azzam.com and Qoqaz.com, two Jihadist websites. Chechnya was a primary focus of both sites - indeed, Qoqaz (which means "Caucuses") was all about Chechnya and clearly positioned the conflict as part of the greater global Islamist attack on the non-Islamist world in a bid to reestablish the 13th century Caliphate. For those who don't know what that is, it is the high-water mark of Islamic civilization, with the Islamic-ruled world spreading as far as the southern half of Spain. The spread of Islamic culture that far was often achieved via violence and eventually caused non-Islamic Europe to fight back, and the Muslims were driven out of Spain (they called it "Andalusia" and the most deranged Muslims still dream of recovering that lost ground, again via violence).

Chechnya, with a large Islamic population, had a revolt against Russian rule more than a decade ago. In more recent years, the Islamist jihadist movement has been converting that independence movement into a jihadist movement. It reached a new climax of evil in Beslan last week, where a mixture of Chechens and Arabs shot kids in the back.

Christian kids, by the way - Beslan is located in a pro-Russian Christian-majority province.

The legitimacy of the Chechen independence movement was destroyed in Beslan by the Islamists.

Putin is right to link future actions against the Chechen/Islamist terrorists as part of the global war on terror precisely because the Chechen Islamists have linked it to the global jihad against the non-Islamic world.

We are in a world war against Islamists and the atrocity of Beslan has put the Russians firmly on our side. Good. It means more firepower focused on wiping out the Islamists.

Interesting how you won't actually face this head on, but what we've come to expect, I suppose.

No, Bill, it didn't reach a new climax of evil at Beslan. The climax was reached long ago, you're simply a johnny-come-lately to the little party over there and you're happy to ignore the history of the conflict. Better yet since some arabs or muslims are involved.

Read again the story I posted of a man who was burned with hot metal in his mouth, nose, and hands, then kicked by 6 people until he passed out. He committed no crimes, nor did most of the other 130,000 Chechens who are now dead. It's difficult to imagine how many more thousands survived the torture.

The firepower isn't focuesed on wiping out Islamists, and this is the point that you seem to miss. It's indiscriminately unfocused on the whole region.

Nobody wants yet another nutty islamic government over there. But the simple-minded "oh, muslims, let's go shoot them" mindset is egregiously stupid, and ignores the fact that indiscriminately shooting people is what started the whole mess in the first place.

You may not respect Kasparov, but, then again, when was the last time your writings graced the pages of the WSJ? He's well respected as an intellectual outside chess circles, and being Russian he knows a thing or two about what's going on over there. Certainly more than either of us.

Nobody is arguing that the Chechen terrorists are "right" or that the Beslan incident was "right". But to think that Russia can keep doing what they've been doing for 10 years and things are suddenly going to get better is, at best, extraordinarily naive.

If you want the Russians on "your side", then, fine. Why not take a minute and go read the link above detailing some of the atrocities committed by your new friends. Ask yourself what these people did to deserve that treatment. Ask yourself if you condone that. Ask yourself if you would be willing to suffer such if it meant ending terrorism.

I'm guessing not. If not, why would you condone subjecting others to such treatment?

It's worth noting, Michael, that the terrorists at Beslan didn't take hostages at the Russian parliament. They aren't going after Russian soldiers and Russian politicians who oppress them.

They are killing women and children.

Women and children. Women and children WHO ARE NOT THE PEOPLE WHO OPPRESSED THEM.

These Chechen fighters you seem to think are waging a legitimate fight for independence of the Chechen people are NOT striking back at the people who oppressed them. They're not fighting the oppressors.

They're going after people who are easy to kill.

Russia's wrongs in Chechnya do not make murdering schoolchilren in Beslan alright.

The Chechen/Arab/Islamist terrorists in Beslan shot little children in the back.

They SHOT LITTLE CHILDREN IN THE BACK.

Understand something very clearly: People who shoot little children in the back in the pursuit of a political goal have surrendered whatever legitimacy their cause may once have had.

People who shoot little children in the back in the pursuit of a political goal deserve to be hunted down and exterminated like vermin. Likewise the people who support people who shoot little children in the back in the pursuit of a political goal.

People who shoot little children in the back in the pursuit of a political goal shhould not be surprised that people like me who love our little sons and daughters are increasingly ready to support a policy of total war against the people who shoot little children in the back in the pursuit of a political goal, and against the dysfunctional society, religion and culture that breeds them.

I will support Russia against the Islamist terrorists of Chechnya not because I love Russians or hate Chechens but because I love my own children and I want to make sure what happened in Beslan does not happen here.

One more point re Chechnya: The Chechen Muslims are mostly Sufi Muslims. Not Sunni - Sufi. (Not Shia either). But lately they have been being overrun by Wahhabi Muslims. Wahabbis are the central source of Islamist terror. Bin Laden is a Wahhabi.

Wahhabi Islam - the virulent, women-oppressing hatred-spewing terrorist-breeding strain of Islam - is our enemy.

So, here's the solution: Chechnya's Sufi Muslims take up arms and wipe out the Wahabbis in their midst and work WITH the Russians to prevent the Wahabbis from ever gaining a toehold in Chechnya, and then I'll encourage Russia to let the Chechens have their independence within a federation of states cooperating military to stop the re-expansion of the Islamist caliphate. Centuries ago, 400 years of Muslim agression and expansion across much of Europe eventually forced the Christians to defend their shrinking territories by launching the Crusades to push back the Muslim invaders.

We can't wait 400 years to respond this time.

One 18 month old infant in the Beslan school was found dead with 18, count 'em, EIGHTEEN, stab wounds. In the melee, one terrorist took the time and effort to pick up a baby and stab it 18 times. You call these people human? Another child had 46 bullet wounds in her BACK, shot while running out of the building. You call these people human? Please stop being an apologist for these sorry excuses for human beings.

There is NOTHING, sad as it may have been, that has been done to the Chechyans that justifies the abomination of that hostage taking operation and anyone with a shred of decency has no trouble condemning the people and ideology that planned and executed it. There are no BUTS about it.